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Hi there, I'm John McAdams, founder of the Big Game Hunting blog, and in this video I'm
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going to do a detailed comparison of the 6.5 Grindle and .308 Winchester cartridges
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While most hunters are probably familiar with the .308 Winchester as a hunting cartridge
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the 6.5 Grindle is not nearly as well known or as widely used
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However, as the AR platform continues to gain in popularity among hunters and shooters
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things are changing fast on that front as more people are looking into good cartridges
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to use in a modern sporting rifle. That's not really surprising because the AR platform offers many inherent advantages for
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hunters and shooters. So for that reason, hunters have several mainstream choices for medium bore AR cartridges these days
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Among those that will function in an AR-15, the 6.5 Grindle is one of the most widely used
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Likewise, the .308 Winchester is far and away the most popular cartridge used in the
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larger AR-10 platform. Both cartridges are solid performers, but each also has different strengths and weaknesses
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So in this episode, I'm going to do a detailed comparison of the 6.5 Grindle and .308 Winchester
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and discuss the pros and cons of each one to help provide some insight into which cartridge
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will work best for you. As usual, we'll start with the history of the 6.5 Grindle and the .308 Winchester
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Winchester unveiled the cartridge we now know as the .308 Winchester in 1952
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The result of a long and contentious search by the U.S. military for a new cartridge to
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replace the .30-06 Springfield after World War II, the new .30 caliber Winchester cartridge
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and the very similar 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge the military adopted had almost exactly the
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same ballistics as the original .30-06 load. However, the newer .308 and 7.62x51mm cartridges fit this same performance into a significantly
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smaller package than the old .30-06. Specifically, the original 7.62x51mm NATO M80 ball load fired a 146 grain full metal
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jacket bullet at 2,750 feet per second. The 7.62x51mm NATO had virtually the same ballistics as the original .30-06 Springfield
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load which was a 150 grain bullet at 2,700 feet per second
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Like the .30-06, the .308 Winchester and the 7.62x51mm NATO fired a .308 caliber bullet
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Now the 7.62x51mm and the .308 Winchester both achieved that performance with a much
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shorter case, 51mm vs. 63mm due to advantages in powder technology that occurred after the
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development of the .30-06. Though the .30-06 remains quite popular among big game hunters, the .308 Winchester has
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steadily grown in popularity over the ensuing decades as well and it is now one of the most
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popular and commonly used centerfire rifle cartridges in the world. Alright, now let's talk about the 6.5 Grindle
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The M16 rifle and the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge got off to a pretty rough start in Vietnam
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with the US Army and the Marine Corps. Modifications to the rifle and ammunition solved most of the problems that plagued the
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system during the war, but large numbers of people in the US military still had very serious
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concerns regarding the stopping power of the little cartridge. Civilian hunters who adopted the AR-15 and the .223 Remington cartridge during the last
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couple decades of the 20th century shared those concerns. Now while the rifle and cartridge worked extremely well for target shooting and for predator
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slash varmint hunting, the .223 Remington developed a reputation for poor performance
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on deer-sized game. However, the AR-15 platform offered a number of advantages to shooters and was also very
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popular in the USA. With this in mind, gun designers, with their finger on the pulse of the American hunting
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and shooting communities, realized they were looking at a potentially massive opportunity
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Realizing that many people loved the AR-15 but that the .223 Remington cartridge was
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not the best choice for hunting big game, designers set about developing a number of
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larger bore cartridges that were more powerful than the .223 but would still function in
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AR-15 rifles. Among others, this list includes cartridges like the 6.8 Remington SPC, the .300 Blackout
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the .450 Bushmaster, the .458 SOCOM, and the .50 Beowulf. Bill Alexander, who was the same guy who developed the .50 Beowulf, designed the 6.5 Grindle
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to fill this market niche in 2002. By modifying a 6.5mm PPC case, which is itself descended from the .220 Russian and the 7.62x39mm
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cartridges, Alexander was very successful in building an efficient, accurate, and sweet
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cartridge that functioned very well in the AR platform. The 6.5 Grindle cartridge is also significantly more powerful than the .223 Remington
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Not only that, but the 6.5 Grindle cartridge is extremely versatile, so it works extremely
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well for long-range shooting, tactical, law enforcement, varmint hunting, and big game
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hunting applications. The cartridge did initially struggle to gain widespread acceptance in the shooting and
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hunting communities for a variety of reasons, one of which was the fact that Bill Alexander
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trademarked the name of the cartridge. However, he relinquished that trademark in 2011 when the cartridge gained SAMI approval
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thus allowing other companies to manufacture ammo, barrels, etc., all bearing the name
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6.5 Grindle. Since then, the 6.5 Grindle has gained traction as more and more hunters and shooters who
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appreciate the improved performance it offers over the .223 and 5.56 NATO cartridges, those
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people have adopted the new 6.5 Grindle. OK, now let's talk about the relative sizes of the .308 and the 6.5 Grindle
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As you can imagine, there are some big differences between the two cartridges. So first, the 6.5 Grindle is much shorter than the .308
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This is because the Grindle cartridge was originally designed for use in an AR-15, which
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can only accommodate cartridges up to 2.26 inches long. With an overall length of 2.26 inches, the 6.5 Grindle is the maximum size cartridge
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that will fit in an AR-15. At 2.81 inches long, the .308 Winchester is much longer and requires a larger rifle that
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can accommodate a cartridge of that size, like the AR-10. Now in that same vein, the .308 Winchester also has a much longer case length than the
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6.5 Grindle, 2.015 inches vs. 1.52 inches. Now since they are descended from different parent cartridges, the .308 Winchester and
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the 6.5 Grindle have different rim diameters, .473 inches for the .308 and .438 inches
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for the 6.5 Grindle. For those reasons, there is a big difference in case capacity between the two cartridges
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with the .308 Winchester having much more powder capacity than the 6.5 Grindle
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Now each also uses different diameter bullets, .264 inches for the Grindle and .308 inches
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for the .308 Winchester. So most 6.5 Grindle ammo typically has bullet weights in the 90 to 130 grain range, with
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100 grain, 110 grain, 120 grain, and 123 grain bullets being the most popular
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On the other hand, the majority of .308 Winchester factory loads shoot bullets in the 110 to
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180 grain range. 150 grain, 165, 168, and 180 grain bullets are by far the most common for that cartridge
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Now the .308 Winchester also has a higher maximum semi-pressure than the 6.5 Grindle
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of 62,000 PSI vs. 52,000 PSI. Now those differences in external dimensions between the Grindle and the Winchester cartridge
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translate into some interesting differences in their ballistic performance. This is illustrated when comparing Federal, Hornady, and Nosler factory ammunition
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In this case, the 6.5 Grindle loads use a 120 grain softpoint with a .340 BC, a 120
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grain Nosler ballistic tip with a .458 BC, and a 123 grain Hornady SST bullet with a
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.510 BC, while the .308 Winchester loads use a 150 grain softpoint with a .414 BC, a 125
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grain Nosler ballistic tip with a .366 BC, and a 165 grain ballistic tip with a .475 BC
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The significantly larger case capacity of the .308 Winchester means that the cartridge
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can push a heavier bullet at a faster muzzle velocity than the 6.5 Grindle
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Not surprisingly, this gives the cartridge an edge in terms of kinetic energy and trajectory
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In this particular case, the .308 Winchester starts off with significantly more, like 40
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to 87% more kinetic energy, and that number increases with range for some of those loads
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This is due to the fact that these particular .308 Winchester loads just use a significantly
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heavier bullet that's fired quite a bit faster. Now additionally, these .308 Winchester loads have a flatter trajectory with less bullet
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drop at all ranges. Now note that the 123 grain Hornady SST load bucks this trend to a certain degree
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Now that particular 6.5 Grindle load uses a very aerodynamic bullet with a high ballistic
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coefficient that retains energy very well. So while the .308 Winchester still has less drop and more retained energy at 500 yards
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the gap narrows considerably with that 6.5 load. Now let's talk about wind deflection, specifically how a 10 mile an hour crosswind impacts those
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same 6.5 Grindle and .308 Winchester loads out to 500 yards. Once again, we see that with the exception of the 123 grain SST load, the .308 Winchester
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outperforms the 6.5 Grindle in terms of wind drift at all ranges
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However, the gap between the two cartridges is not as big in this particular area as it
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was in the kinetic energy and just bullet drop arenas. Now in fact, the Hornady SST load actually has less wind drift than some of the .308
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Winchester hunting loads at all ranges. So while the .308 Winchester does have something of an edge with wind drift, this is absolutely
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a strong suit for the 6.5 Grindle and the exact loads being compared here really make
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a big difference. Now let's talk about recoil. Felt recoil will vary from shooter to shooter and rifle to rifle, but free recoil energy
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is still a useful way to compare cartridges. Now the 6.5 Grindle has significantly less recoil than the .308 Winchester
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Depending on the exact load, the .308 Winchester has approximately 2 to 3 times more recoil
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Now that is really saying something too because the .308 isn't known as an especially hard
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recoiling cartridge. Now most shooters should be able to handle the recoil of both cartridges, but the 6.5
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Grindle has a big advantage in this respect, especially for smaller or more recoil-shy hunters
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Now don't underestimate the impact that recoil has on the ability of a person to shoot accurately either
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Some people do handle recoil better than others, but all other things being equal, they will
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absolutely shoot more accurately with a milder recoiling cartridge. Alright, so where do we stand here
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The .308 Winchester fires a larger diameter and heavier bullet at a faster velocity than
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the 6.5 Grindle. For this reason, the .308 has a flatter trajectory and significantly more retained kinetic energy
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than the 6.5 Grindle at typical hunting ranges. However, the 6.5 Grindle does have much less recoil
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Now when comparing these two cartridges, it is important to remember that the 6.5 Grindle
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was designed to offer better performance out of an AR-15 than the .223 Remington
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Bill Alexander was very successful in accomplishing that goal. However, just like there is a big gap in performance between the .223 Remington and the .308 Winchester
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there remains a big, though slightly smaller, gap in performance between the .308 Winchester
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and the 6.5 Grindle. Now all told, the 6.5 Grindle is a moderately powerful, mild recoiling, and relatively flat
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shooting cartridge that's also pretty resistant to wind drift. This is especially remarkable considering that the cartridge packs that level of performance
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into a very small package that can still fit in the relatively tight constraints of the
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AR-15 platform. So I think it's fair to say that the 6.5 Grindle is a very good all-around cartridge for those
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who want to use an AR-15 for big game hunting. Now in addition to hunting, the 6.5 Grindle is also a really nice choice for self-defense
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or personal protection for people who like the AR-15 platform. And the cartridge also does have a very good barrel life
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Now the 6.5mm bore diameter is also in something of a sweet spot, where it's easier to manufacture
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very high BC bullets that aren't especially heavy. Those aerodynamic projectiles don't slow down as fast and are more resistant to wind drift
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At the same time, even though it uses lighter bullets, the 6.5 Grindle also has a slight
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edge over the .308 in bullet sectional density. Now sectional density is a measure of the ratio of the diameter of a projectile to its mass
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All other things equal, a heavier projectile of a given caliber will be longer and have
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a higher sectional density, and they will consequently penetrate deeper than projectiles
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with a lower mass and or sectional density. As an example, 123 grain and 129 grain .264 caliber bullets have sectional densities of
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.252 and .264 respectively. This compares favorably to 150 grain, 165 grain, and 180 grain .308 caliber bullets
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which have sectional densities of .226, .248, and .271 respectively. Now there is some overlap here, but with the exception of the absolute heaviest 180 grain
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.308 Winchester bullets, the 6.5 Grindle does have a slight edge in sectional density
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That being said, while it does have an edge in terms of sectional density, I wouldn't
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say that it really punches above its weight to the same degree as other cartridges like
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the 6.5 Swede or the 9.3x62mm Mauser. What about accuracy? Now, the .308 Winchester has seen extensive use in the hands of competition shooters and
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has an outstanding reputation in that area. However, the 6.5 Grindle also excels in that area and, if we're being honest, both cartridges
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are absolutely capable of tack-driving accuracy in the right hands. That said, I do tend to lean towards the 6.5 Grindle in this area because the cartridge
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has such mild recoil. This is a very important characteristic that absolutely helps facilitate better shot placement
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which is extremely important while hunting. On the other hand, the .308 Winchester is simply a significantly more powerful cartridge
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It's not in the same class as heavy hitters like the 7mm Remington Magnum or the .300
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Winchester Magnum, but it is still on a completely different level from the 6.5 Grindle
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For one thing, the .308 Winchester uses larger diameter bullets. For this reason, it has about 36% more frontal surface area than the 6.5 Grindle
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All other things being equal, a bigger bullet will make a bigger hole, cause more tissue
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damage and result in more blood loss. The .308 Winchester can also use significantly heavier bullets, which, along with the advantage
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the cartridge has in case capacity, helps the .308 carry more energy downrange
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Combined with the larger diameter and frontal surface area of the bullets used by the cartridge
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hunters have a little bit more room for error in shot placement when compared to the 6.5 Grindle
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Those characteristics are also helpful when hunting bigger game. Make no mistake, the 6.5 Grindle is a good hunting cartridge with outstanding terminal
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performance on many species of big game. It's just that I think the .308 Winchester is better in that role, that is, if the hunter
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can place his or her shots appropriately. When all is said and done, the 6.5 Grindle round is still more than powerful enough for
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hunting varmints as well as medium-sized game like deer at short to moderate range
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I would not use it on elk though. What about ammo selection
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While the 6.5 Grindle is a reasonably popular cartridge, it cannot hold a candle to the
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.308 Winchester, which is typically one of the three most popular centerfire rifle cartridges
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sold in the USA. That said, there are some good factory ammo choices for both cartridges
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The big ammo manufacturers like Barnes, Browning, Federal Premium, Hornady, Nosler, Remington
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and Winchester all produce a variety of quality .308 Winchester factory ammo suitable for hunting
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On the other hand, 6.5 Grindle ammo is available from Federal with their Fusion MSR and American
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Eagle lines and Hornady with their American Gunner, Black, and Custom lines
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Alexander Arms still produces 6.5 Grindle ammo and Wolf also offers a pretty good low-priced
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full metal jacket option for the cartridge. Nosler also offers 6.5 Grindle ammunition as part of their Ballistic Tip line
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During normal times, it's usually very easy to find .308 Winchester ammo and almost any
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gun or sporting goods store will have a pretty good variety of .308 ammo in stock
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And really, as I record this in 2022, while we're still in the middle of an ammo shortage
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the .308 Winchester is one of the easier to find centerfire rifle ammo options available
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in the USA, at least where I've been shopping. Now, however, while it's not really rare, not every sporting goods store keeps 6.5 Grindle
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ammo in stock and that has also held true with the ongoing ammo shortage
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6.5 Grindle ammo is easier to find than some other things, but nowhere near as easy to
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find as .308 Winchester ammo, once again, as I'm recording this. Okay, what about rifles
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Well, once again, the .308 Winchester is a little bit more widely available than the
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6.5 Grindle, but there are a couple of good semi-auto as well as bolt-action rifles in
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both cartridges. Alexander Arms manufactured the first rifles in 6.5 Grindle and they continue to do so
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Since then, Wilson Combat and a couple of other companies like Radical Firearms and
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Brinton USA have also started producing modern sporting rifles in the cartridge
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It's also possible to purchase a 6.5 Grindle upper receiver and convert an existing AR-15
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to shoot the 6.5 Grindle cartridge. Now, the 6.5 Grindle can also use regular M16 or M4 carbine magazines with a slight
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decrease in magazine capacity and potentially in reliability. A typical 30-round .223 or .556 magazine will hold about 26 6.5 Grindle rounds
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Now, the Ruger American Ranch and Predator bolt-action rifles are currently manufactured
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in 6.5 Grindle. The same goes for the CZ-527 and the Howa Mini
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Now, the .308 Winchester is relatively common in semi-automatic rifles like the AR-10 and
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the M1A. It's also very common in bolt guns. Of course, Remington and Winchester produce their flagship Model 70 and Model 700 rifles
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in .308. Same thing goes for the Browning X-Bolt, the Kimber Hunter, Mossberg Patriot, Nosler M48
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Ruger American, Ruger Hawkeye, Savage Axis, and Weatherby Vanguard as well. So with all of that said, which cartridge is right for you
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Do you primarily hunt medium-sized game like Whitetail Deer, Feral Hogs, or Black Bear
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at ranges within 200 yards? Both cartridges will absolutely get the job done if you do your part
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There is not a gigantic difference between them ballistically inside 300 yards, though
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the .308 does have a little bit more kinetic energy and a little bit flatter trajectory
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but that's not to say that the 6.5 Grindle isn't capable at those ranges and on those animals
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Go with the 6.5 Grindle here if you want to hunt with an AR-15, or with the .308 if you
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want to go a more traditional route and have a bigger selection of ammo or rifles to choose
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from, or if you just want a little bit more powerful cartridge. Both will work, though
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Now are you looking for the better cartridge for long-range hunting for game like Mule
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Deer or Pronghorn in more open country where you might need to take a shot at several hundred yards
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Now the .308 Winchester does have a flatter trajectory, depending on the exact load will
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potentially drift a little bit less in the wind, and it does carry significantly more
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energy out past 200 yards, so I would go with that cartridge in this situation
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Do you want a hunting cartridge that is well-suited for a game like Caribou, Moose, Elk, Elan
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Kudu, or Red Stag that's just a little bit bigger? I consider both cartridges to be a little on the light side for hunting those sort of
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animals, but in this case the .308 Winchester is clearly the better choice for most hunters
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out of these two particular cartridges because it shoots heavier and larger diameter bullets
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that carry so much more kinetic energy downrange. Do you prefer to use a semi-automatic rifle for hunting or for personal defense
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Both will absolutely work in this role. The 6.5 Grindle is available in the AR-15 platform, which is smaller and lighter than
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the AR-10s and whatnot that the .308 is available in. The cartridge also recoils less, which makes it easier to get back on target for a follow-up shot
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However, while the 6.5 Grindle is certainly powerful enough to get the job done, and it
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is quite a bit more powerful than the .223 or the .556 cartridges, the .308 Winchester
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does just hit significantly harder, and it is the better choice for someone who wants
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a true quote-unquote battle rifle. Are you sensitive to recoil and in need of a serious low-recoil cartridge
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Well, the 6.5 Grindle has significantly less recoil than the .308 Winchester, especially
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in a lighter rifle. Do you want the round best suited for target shooting out past 400 yards or so in a precision rifle
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Both will work, and both have excellent reputations for precision shooting, but I would personally
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lean towards the 6.5 Grindle for work at longer ranges, since it has such a mild recoil
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Now, as I have stated several times in this episode, the 6.5 Grindle and the .308 Winchester
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are both very solid rifle cartridges. However, since they were designed with very different goals in mind, the differences between
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them are pretty big in many respects. Carefully evaluate your needs as a hunter based upon the circumstances you foresee using
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the cartridge in, get a good hunting rifle chambered in the cartridge you select, learn
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to shoot it well, use quality ammo, and it should serve you well afield
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Now, if you enjoyed this video, then please make sure you subscribe to my YouTube channel
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right now. Just click the red subscribe button below to make sure you don't miss out on any of
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my new videos on hunting gear reviews, cartridge comparisons, and more. For more detailed information on popular hunting cartridges and what they are best
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suited for, click on the link in the description below or go to HuntingGuns101.com to get a
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free e-book I have written on the best hunting calibers. Now I'm going to turn it over to you
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What cartridge do you prefer out of these two, the 6.5 Grindle or the .308 Winchester
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What game have you successfully taken with them? Let me know by leaving a comment on this video right now
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Thanks for watching, have a great day, and good hunting